Infernal Vengeance

madalchemist · Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:36 am 2 Kara groups and Gruul

Hey guys :)

I've been noticing lately that there have been heaps more people online regularly, interested in running more raiding instances of late (Thursdays and Sundays). More than a few people have noted that we *nearly* have enough people to run 2 Kara groups, side by side. It's a thought that I've considered also.

Whilst i'm not against it (I'm actually for it), we must proceed with caution. At the moment we're probably a few players short of being able to do this, which leaves us where we are at the moment in rotating the noob-geared with the non-noob-geared.

Currently, having looked at everyone's gear, I've assessed that there are probably 13 people that I'd consider as top-geared (I see every DPS/Heal meter of every run). To make the 2 runs worthwhile, we'd need a few more better geared people to spread around to both groups. Keeping the above two points in mind, I'd go for 2 Kara groups only under the conditions:

(a) I can identify 18-20 top-geared peeps
(b) We get 4-5 more people who are casual minded, mature, and friendly.
(c) Shawne comes back regularly. Or we find a casual minded tank'er (I know Bashmegood is still there, but i prefer having Bashtard dps)

We have to also remember that we still put Real Life No. 1 - so whoever has to look after their families, kids, friends, partners, can do so without feeling guilty about their guildies. So having extras is the key.

Right now, we've got a good blend of noob-geared and non-noobgeared people, which is why the Thursday/Sunday is working well. I'd like to see a few more noob-geared people on Thursdays run though.

Next: Gruul.

Now I've also seen up to 20 level 70's online at the same time - pretty sweet! So I've been thinking about Gruul, and I reckon that we're also pretty close to giving this a go. One thing to consider however is the gear issue - high dps is a must!

So here's my deal: as a whole, when we can start to drop Prince on a regular basis, we'd be just about set for Gruuls, dps wise. At the moment, it looks like Prince requires our best dps to be just a bit better, and one day when we can sub players in and out and still drop Prince, then we're set.

Bashkan · Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:50 pm

Yeah real difficult scenario this.

The situation as i see it now ... We have more than enough people to run Kara on at any one time. Thursday/Sunday/Monday. We occasionally have enough people to run 2 Kara's. It is extremely rare that we have the "same" people on again the subsequent raid time. Where does this leave us? Potentially with 2 Kara locked groups that are short of numbers. Bad outcome all around.

Group composition is key. We NEED enough tanks. We NEED enough healers. For certain fights, you NEED priests. For certain fights you NEED locks. For certain groups you NEED pally's.

Our problem is that most our capable tanks/healers are also our most capable DPS. (perhaps we need lives ...) Our guild seems to be dripping in DPS ... that a server issue too. In saying that, we could do with more locks.

I agree with tree. If we are to start a second Kara group, the first group needs to be at farm stage. We need to be able to clean up Kara (carrying someone). This will allow us to gear the undergeared and free up one of our multi purpose players (Cece, Myself, Tree, Major, Wonju) to fill the iffy requirement of a spot that may need filling in group 2 (be that tank, heal, etc).

I'd be happy to step out to help the guild. However, we need to be regularly dropping the end Kara bosses. This alone will gear people. If can drop Prince and Netherspite and Nightbane every week, thats 6 high end epics for the guild on top of what is being distributed atm. That means potentially freeing up a hard hitter to help progress group 2. If we could get to the stage where both groups are knocking on Prince's door then Gruuls is a certainty. But that my friends is a long way away. We need to be solidly clearing Kara for a month before i believe we will have people geared enough to carry some lesser geared through the end of Kara. At that stage we can lend some heavy tanks/heals/dps to the second group and get them past a point they are stuck with and in the meantime be subbing people into group 1 to gear them faster.

MajorMojo · Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:23 pm

yep and every man and his dog feels their ready to take on kara soon as they hit 70....

I certainly know that's how i felt when i hit 70 in my blues.....

But sadly relating this fact to our new members requires much patience and in actual fact, they'll only probably see the light after we show everyone the dmg meters.... (which we've decided not to show during fights)

Perhaps it'll be advisable to post it after each boss fight (but that could slow our runs down time wise)

Oh wells they'll grasp the realities of raiding soon enuff

now onto this raid composition thingie for 2 runs - recruitment is the key

At first i was recruiting willy nilly, taking any bloke that seemed half decent and semi-sane....(ok ok i made a few mistakes, but at the time beggars couldn't be choosers)

However we're at a point where we can afford the luxury of choice (albiet small)

Let's focus our recruiting efforts on tanks/healers/ +1 more lock or mebbe 2 locks

The way i see it - we need 1 new dedicated MT dude - be it goro, blood, whoever. We need a dedicated OT, who can double as DPS or off healer. e.g. Milt is OT and good DPS, Bubble boy is OT and good OH (and kinda decent DPS :p)

But you get my drift. If we can fill these 2 spots permanantly (i can't spell) then we're set imho

(plus a new holy/disc priest wouldn't go wrong either)

Zulsoka · Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:04 pm

if were looking at recruiting, u cant go past shadow priests :) they can be great dps and cc, and also help the group out with mana and health regen.

locks are scarce in IV, we have Wonju and ..... bigknife?? and....Mypns??lol but i dont see him online much these days. and mr noob seer, who we dont see online either. Gawk is at 56 now, so it wont be too much longer til he is ready to raid kara. I will be able to lvl Gawk faster if i give up my permanant raid spot in kara for someone who rly needs upgrades from there. I am such a lazy wow player :)

i agree with bash when he said we should have kara on farm ( all bosses in 2 nights, maybe a 3rd night for the dragons) b4 we start thinkin bout another team. and then both teams should have kara on farm and not need ALOT of upgrades from there b4 we even think about Gruul's.

Do u guys really wanna start raiding Gruul's lair?? i know some of us have 20 man raiding experience pre TBC, and know how much of a headache it can be to lead these groups. ( with ppl afk'ing, not showing up when they said they would, lack of concentration when it is needed,lack of gear, lack of mods, lack of teamwork) all these things make raiding SO expensive and boring. ATM i have been averaging 30g a night to raid with u guys!! just from wipes and deaths caused by silly mistakes ( like agroing random mobs, not watching where u are going etc.) that is 30G not including the pots,flasks,food i buy to make my healz UBER!! haha. so yes it is becoming expensive, and no its not going to get any cheaper when we venture into 25 man raids.

so once we can clear kara without any silly wipes, we will know our team work is up to scratch and we will be able to tell which of our members are switched on when they need to be and the ones who repeatedly make silly mistakes, so we can choose the best 25 team we have to have a real chance of downing Gruul and High king.

Donniegirl · Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:03 pm

Hey,

I just joined, and honestly I'm a little scared that I'm making this my first post. But here goes.

I just left my former guild because:

They have/had 2 Kara groups running side by side. And to start with they were balanced teams, then the top geared players started complaining that they weren't getting the progession through Kara that they had been prior to the second group running.

So for 2 weeks they put all the top geared into a team and pushed for Prince. The first week they couldn't drop him.
The second week, the teams were slightly altered and they were a couple of B team members in the A team, for class balance. And that week the A team downed Prince after 3-4 wipes. Ironically the B team also got to Prince and one shotted him.

This was about 2 months ago

Since then, the A team has only run twice both times dropping Prince while the B team didn't get to Prince.

The last few weeks they've only had the people to run 1 team, and the top geared aren't running, as they now have the complaint that they don't want to run Kara unless the Whole team is at their gear and xp level. (If we're not downing Prince then it's not worth my time, I don't need anything from the lower bosses anymore)

This last weeks run, to even get it off the ground they had to get one of their top geared healers to Main tank (druid) he's only MT'd Kara once before and that was in the very very earliy days. The OT was brand new. and so were 2 of the DPS. That raid only got as far as it did because it had the best healing combination in the guild (for the first night anyway).

And it didn't get far. The first night saw Moros down after mulitple wipes and att one shotted after 2 wipes on Att's trash.
Last night seen the Healers changed around and the group went straight to Opera R&J 5 wipes, then go to Maiden for 3 wipes. No Bosses down.

Just something for you to think about

MajorMojo · Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:35 pm

hullo Donnie, and welcome to the forums!

Who's your toon? I don't recall seeing a Donnie on our roster (unless you joined like last nite :P)

But yeah we're all quite comfortable atm with the 1 kara group, and subbing people in and out atm... i doubt we'll get to the 2 kara groups simultaneously running

In any case we do need a back up MT. Current we have tree & bashmegood - however bash wants to play on his boomkin so that only really leaves us with 1 properly geared MT. Bubble + Alec are close, but better OT than MT

imho we'll probably gear up everyone with our single kara clears and move onto Gruul's one of these days. Just need to gear up and train our newbies!

Perhaps we should set some goals like
- no DPS raid member to be under the MT's dmg total!! (don't laff with a druid tank this does happen)
- no healer to be further than a 10% gap from the other healer in terms of healing done (that's just being slack)

We could also create the rank "noob" on our guild member status, and demote them! (plus we'll chuck bash + cece in there for good measure)

MajorMojo · Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:48 pm

oh and on a happier note i guess since we're clearing kara up to prince most weeks, we're getting an average of 8/10 bosses (bar the dragons) down per week

That's 16 epics per week!!!

NOICE!!!!!

Heck we'll all be swimming in epics in no time! I reckon its almost gotten to the stage where we're gonna DE some epics

Hey Zul when do you think we'll be ready for Gruul's? (Bash MT + Tree second MT - coz druids can dodge the hateful bolts/blows) That leaves yourself, me, alec, and blood as the 4 healers. All we needs to do is gear up 19 DPS noobs :p

Donniegirl · Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:24 am

actually yes I just joined last night :)

Holy Priest
Tailor Mooncloth
Enchanter (mongoose the only thing of any real note)

And yes I've been DE'ing in Kara.

Bashkan · Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:46 pm

I'm happy to drag bash out anytime we need him. I play the boomkin more as i can actually complete dailys and farm etc. A prot warrior is good for 1 thing ... instances ... only instances. So you'll always see the boomkin on more but im happy to drag bash out anytime the guild needs him.
The only thing im sorta contemplating atm is whether i should go gear Bashtard for tank too. I'm thinking in the long run having one toon to switch around witha respec is better than 2, that way if the things i want drop i dont have sit there wishing i was on my other toon :D.
In saying that though, the guild really does need a warrior tank. If we hit Gruuls we'll quickly find that there are times you want a tank of each type.
As it stands Bash is available for duty anytime he's needed.

Zulsoka · Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:10 am

for Gruul's lair, we will need atleast 6 healers for when we are just starting out, maybe even 7, it makes things go easier and the fights last longer so everyone can see how the fights work. (5 can prob do it, but everyone needs to pull their weight).

we only really need 2 geared tanks, but will definatly need to bring a 3rd, somone who can OT 1 of the trash mobs leading to Gruul, but can go back to dps on the boss.

just an idea... one of the guilds i was in had 15 solid members when we 1st started out. then we ran and cleared kara on our 1st night as a guild :) that was a late night but a good fun time.
when it came to Gruul's lair, we were all keen, but we just lacked the numbers by a few. so we organized a time for Gruuls, and advertised it in the LFG chan throughout the day ( or an hour b4 the raid starts). Mojo and stella came a couple of times :) but through pugging, we managed to sort the wheat from the chaff, and did some recruiting.

but dont ask me how the guild ended up....

MajorMojo · Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:08 pm

6-7 healers? For 5 groups?

U sure?

I mean if people don't do silly shit and pull aggro do they really get hit up that much? Sure everyone takes a bit of AOE dmg on Gruul encounter (not so sure on the High king encounter - never did it)

So how many healers do u keep on the MT during Gruul? 2 on tanks and 4 on the rest of the raid?

Or do you guys rotate healers on MT as healers go OOM?

Ccpl · Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:57 pm

MajorMojo wrote:

Hey Zul when do you think we'll be ready for Gruul's? (Bash MT + Tree second MT - coz druids can dodge the hateful bolts/blows) That leaves yourself, me, alec, and blood as the 4 healers. All we needs to do is gear up 19 DPS noobs :p

So what does that make Bubble??

Bashkan · Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:05 pm

Ccpl wrote:

So what does that make Bubble??

As i've always said ... a complete waste of space ... bring back the DPS :D

Ccpl · Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:20 pm

Bashkan wrote: Ccpl wrote:

So what does that make Bubble??

As i've always said ... a complete waste of space ... bring back the DPS :D

Meh, I would enjoy embarrasing you too much :P

Ill just respec Bubble to Lolret - with the 2.3 patch, I might even be viable!

Bashkan · Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:25 pm

Be careful ... i've just read up on way to increase my dps by 10-20% without gear upgrades ... :D